Here is a very serious thread on the perfection that is, the Controled Round Feed. You two are talking about movies or books or something totally unrelated. Let's please stay on topic.
Controlled Round Feed
But there is only one perfect rifle action, and that is the Sauer 90. Retractable recoil lugs, not CRF, cannot fail in feed or extraction.
Voila! No extraneous appendages.
I think you should start a thread on the Retractable Recoil Lug site. In all seriousness, that is a nice looking rifle. I don't think I have ever handled one. All these years buying less than satisfactory rifles and taking them on some very successful hunts then, told I was doing it wrong so, I'm saving up for a CRF and now you tell me there is something better.........? Why didn't you say something months ago?
That's Modern Sporting Rifle and they come in all sorts of calibers and colors, even pink! They weigh in at about 10 pounds or so but are considered very packable compared to an old hunting rifle weighing 6 or 7 pounds. If you put a bunch of accessories on one you can get the weight up to bench rest standards!!! What's not to like. Chris S
And all this time I ignored those sites. I thought MSR was an abbreviation for "Mauser". I saw some of those at a gun show with this cool looking snow camo. It was stainless and a composite of some sort. Very practical too. Are they a CRF of any sort?
These new guns are for Suppressors and Maxim's idea for quiet backyard shooting is now gaining popularity in the ex soldier cadre. You don't have a rifle unless it has a foot of suppressor sticking out of the end of the barrel...Chris S
I have a great aversion to CRF only because it seems like a crutch that peeps rely on to save face when they blow a shot or get gored by a bull they missed. Or whatever........Now let's hear from all the Mauser dudes who say that they never missed a shot because they double actioned trying to get another shot off! I've heard of double stroking and jamming the action in a panic and don't know if this qualifys as a malfunction or an operator malfunction..... Chris S
I try to break out of the CRF discussion, and you'se guys keep it up. And then get excited about AR's. Holy crap. I was trying to ignore the two AR15's and two AR10's in the gun room and was hoping you wouldn't notice them. The AR10's are a bit heavy at 10 pounds with sniper scopes, but the AR15's weigh in from 5 1/2 pounds with reflex sight to 7 pounds with a nice old Burris 6X compact scope. AND DO THEY EVER SHOOT.
Plus, people who are afraid of guns or have never had the chance to shoot really get into it when they see how easy it is to hit with the light AR's. I'll bet even Joe Biden would change his tune if he came to visit me.
Plus, I don't mind packing them aroung in the crappy environment here rather than my pretty rifles.
Today, as this is written, the newest iteration of the genuine Mauser 98 action is in production.
Currently the two most popular action lengths are filling the line, standard and Magnum, with the micro length yet to join its brethren.
Certainly, the return of this genuine action speaks of a longevity and a following that is remarkable. Vocal critics fill internet space, but their derision is not shared by the buying public. Custom gunsmiths continue to build remarkably expensive rifles on these actions, works of art that set a high standard.
The place of the crf action is secure, historically and in the present. There is solid business sense, backed by long proof in the field, for the continued success of Peter Paul Mausers' most famous design.
So, like it or not, crf remains central to modern sporting rifle design.
Today Winchester offers the model 70 with traditional crf, Cz modified Mauser actions remain popular worldwide. Sako continues crf with it's heavy caliber offerings, and the used market is well supported both by military and sporter examples.
The afficiando of crf has many options, and he will continue to explore them for the foreseeable future.
Mak quote"Sako continues crf with it's heavy caliber offerings,"
I think the Sako actions are a variant of push feed and crf combined since the heavy calibers in 75 and 85 rifles use a three lug bolt with a non-claw extractor that does catch the cartridge rim but not until it has moved forward a bit. I could call my 1895 Marlin 45-70 crf too as the cartridge lifter(?) guides the cartridge up to the bolt mimicking a crf action in some ways. Sako rifles are some of the finest ever made and routinely out shoot any real Mauser rifle hands down out of the box with sub MOA groups effortlessly. Chris S
All four Bear models..."feature...controlled cartridge feed."
This from Sako itself.
Gee Chris, looks like it's your turn to be called on for spreading inaccurate "myths."
Damn, Chris. Sprinkle some holy water on this thread. Count Makula keeps rising. I confess, I like my Springfield 1903. I liked my 1895 Mauser carbine. But, I like my Sauer 90 more than any of them. So, hahaha.
I wonder if the Count is in on the efforts to get the Electors to change their votes, too.
Since the last time we have talked, I had a guy in Mexico make me a Paladin rig. Cast silver chess knight with ruby eye and all. To be impeccable, I had to hunt up a true royal blue 1873 Colt in 45LC. That's a set of giraffe bone grips.
Carefully read the Sako specs. "three lug bolt, Sako extractor in the side of the bolt, short lift due to three lug bolt," The original reviews of both the 75 and 85 in the firearms magazines specifically detail the Sako CRF system and it ain't a pure Mauser style with a full claw extractor that catches the cartridge straight from the magazine. The Sako heavy calibers rely on push feeding the cartridge a little way into the chamber before the extractor catches the cartridge and forces it back into the bolt face. (Picture copied from a G&A article)_Sako model 85 bolt face from a 338 federal Sako.
If you call that true CRF more power to you, I prefer to call that Sako's version of CRF intended to satisfy those DG hunters who can't do without CRF.
P.S. Mike, Great looking rig!
What is the definition of crf?
Sako tells us they employ it in a specific line of actions, you choose to not believe them. Why should I care?
Mike W., the adult diaper spokesman, forever repeats his intellectually vapid opinion. If I owned that holster, I'd remove the tacky chess piece, looks like a third graders notion of aesthetics. You guys really need to get a life.
Now, on to substance, since we are done with the twins primeval...
The Rigby company is once again making rifles of fine quality, once again with genuine Magnum Mauser actions. To anyone even vaguely familiar with African hunting, this is a significant development. The venerable 416, whose earlier scarcity sparked rumors of its demise, is back better than ever. What this means is that the Mauser action continues as the action of choice for the best sporting rifles craftsmanship can create.
The future of African hunting is in doubt. Elephant populations continue to crash, Rhinos, once plentiful, are on the verge of extinction. Roads are planned to cross the Serengeti, poaching and habitat destruction continue unabated. African hunters are demanding luxurious camp accommodations, and government policies are increasing firearm illiteracy. These are formidable obstacles to the continuation of the tradition.
Taken as a bigger picture, the bickering over actions and overstated opinions seems incredibly petty, even blind.
In the end, the purpose of a "simple machine" is just that, to perform its task simply and competently, and of course reliably. The success of simple machines has much to do with the success of the human race. Some simple machines, for whatever reason, achieve a status all their own. The Mauser action and it's offspring controlled round feed, as with the classic model 70, has certainly achieved this status.
Petty people can't understand that rifles like the Weatherby MV revolutionized big game killing. It's not CRF but many hunters take them to Africa, as with the Blazer and several other non CRF big game rifles such as the TC single shots and many more. Call me petty but your upbringing is showing when you can't take constructive criticism . Chris S
Apparently, you must be a young whippersnapper or you would recognize the rig with the chess knight. Chris and I are old enough to to know what it is. Maybe that's the answer: we are old enough to have already finished our martinet phase and just admire fine firearms of all families.
I am still looking for a source for properly designed cast bullets for 45LC. Everybody wants to make bevel based things and call them Keith type. Someday I will find a real source and I will be able to keep us in slugs so we can survive the zombie apocalypse.
My best advice is to chill out and enjoy life while you can.
How about a nice Model 29 4" with factory engraving. Elmer recommended the 4", but I was always afraid it might be hard on the hand and wrist. With good grips it's a pussycat.
That Giraffe bone looks great for grips. Great looking rig as well. I'd really like to know where some get their info on Africa? Elephant populations fluctuate depending on area and availability of feed. Much of the habitat destruction can be from areas of over populated Elephants. And "African hunters are demanding luxurious accommodations"? The latest trend has been back pack hunts and more rustic camps. But anyone attending an SCI or Dallas Safari Club convention would be aware of this or, better yet, going to Africa themselves. My next Safari will be in 2018, I will be sure to get a Rigby or Mauser as I have been doing it wrong all this time. Thank you for waking me up on this issue!
mworkmaster, Have you looked at the moulds that Dave Scovill has designed? I have heard good things but I haven't shot any yet.
I think it's called the 270SAA?
I have a real Keith mold. An old Lyman 454429 four holer that I love. But, I have had to give up casting, and I need to find a commercial outfit that can supply bullets the way I want them. Scovill's bullet is really good, also.
Mike, What about Montana Bullets line. Not sure if they are real Keith but they have flat bases. Chris
Well, there is constructive criticism, and then there is peevish, arrogant hairsplitting.
There is the insight granted by experience, and there is grandstanding.
Chris, in your zeal to plagiarize the Rifleshooter review of the 85, and not identify the source of your parroting, you are not offering constructive criticism, you are just searching for something to criticize because you want to be a critic. If you actually read what I wrote, you would realize that your hairsplitting does NOT EFFECT THE NATURE OF MY POINT.
I could have chosen the Montana Rifle Company as my third example, but I figured Sako was better known. Since your sneering response once again ignores the fact that your plagiarism isn't structural, I can only conclude that you are pathetically incapable of grasping a complex statement, so here it is in Neanderthal English just for you: Sako or no Sako, crf continues to be a fixture in the building of new rifles. Do you get that, partner?
I laugh at you hamfisted attempts, Mike, to save face. More than half the time your posts waver off topic. You whine about the continuation of this thread, and then you post to keep it going. Which is it, Mike? I guess it depends on the time of day.
Neither of you have any real point to make regarding the topic of crf. Nor do you have the intellectual curiosity to post your own topics. You simply take an oppositional stance for it's own sake, and display your lack of class for everyone to observe.
I've long ago realized that your responses are unproductive, that they are generally pointless, and that they don't address any structural position regarding the topic at hand.
Guess you guys can sit smugly and pretend you have something worthwhile to address, but I have yet to see it.
My comments on crf, Mauser, history, and the current deplorable state of "thought" remain. So, strap on your Depends and head for those pharmaceuticals guys, and never admit you have nothing worthwhile to say.
Obviously you are way too arrogant and vindictive and even belligerent to the extent of fanaticism! You continue to spout your opinion as the only rational opinion out there and belittle and condemn anyone who dares to disagree. You remind me of the left leaning liberals who think they are better than everyone else. This posting dates back to November 2014 and you brought it out of retirement. Enough is enough, if you don’t like what you hear on this site join a forum where everyone thinks like you do. Chris S
P.S. G&A is Guns and Ammo magazine, picture was from their article!
I think if they do a new Paladin series, MAK should play the lead. As I remember, Paladin rarely shot anybody, he talked them into insensibility. I just received the whole series on DVD, so I will check.
So, Chris, your nitpicking has gotten you a response you don't like? You can blame me, but it's you who brought it down on yourself. Why don't you go find somewhere else, somewhere that nobody knows what controlled round feed means? I reopened this thread because of some pertinent updates, which you ignored and/ or attacked with your characteristic intolerance. So, are you saying that because I reopened the thread you couldn't help but exercise your inner insufferable know it all? Why don't you go attack Sako for claiming to crf? You won't because you wouldn't have your demented sidekick for a double team.
I actually enjoy talking about guns, remembering good memories, and creating new ones. You just refuse to take any responsibility for what your hubris and hostility has brought home.
Here's a piece of advice, don't conflate verbal bullying with constructive criticism, they are two different things.
As for poor old deranged Mike W, he has nothing but grade school insults, and endless running at the mouth over what he likes. Pathetic.
No one else here is as vindictive, arrogant, and insulting as you MW.
Fortunately, the vast majority of people who post here actually have some manners, and some respect. You two don't, and so in the future, if you do let loose against me, you are going to get it back in full. Neither of you have the intellectual capacity to comprehend this, so I'm telling you flat out.
Now, you both can go back to your teething rings and plastic rattles.
Montana Bullet Works is the answer. Thanks for suggesting that I look at them. They hand cast and have my favorites, 454424 and 429421! How great is that? I already have some on the way.
Mike, Have you considered selling (or trading) for your other mould? I have an original Keith single cavity that, as told to me, was a prototype. It is rough and I don't care to use it as I'm afraid I'd damage it. If so, please PM me. If I don't hear from you and Chris before, Merry Christmas!
Mike, Sorry to bother you again, if you feel comfortable enough doing so, please post a picture of the Colt in your Paladin rig? I'm a sucker for any Colt Revolver.
Here you go, EMK:
This is the Colt fresh from the box. Up above is a photo in the Paladin rig with the giraffe bone grips.
Seems the Sauer multinational, which owns Mauser, SIG, and others, has reduced the Mauser offerings. The 98 now only exists in the Magnum action, and only in the 375 H&H, and the 416 Rigby.
For those who have various psychological dysfunctions surrounding the 98, Mauser is promoting two relatively new push feed designs, although with all the really fine standard actions to be had, one wonders as to the wisdom of this strategy.
You can see it all here:
OK,, This has nothing to do with rifles. Are you still,at your old address? I finally, after much research, found a place in Montana that hand cast the good, Old 454424 Lyman bullets. I got a potful and thought, "Good Old MAK, needs some of these. So, send me your address.
Mike, I just saw the picture of your Colt. That is beautiful, thank you for posting it. (that is a CRF Colt....isn't it?)
Yes Mike, I haven't moved.
You know I've been trying to find a local source for a few years, without success.
I actually gave up looking, and just put my aged New Service into quiet retirement. It's just useless to shoot .452" bullets, unless you like revolvers that think they're scatterguns.
Colt did try their hand at repeating rifles in the good old 19th century. I think Uberti made some copies of the Lightning. There's a famous picture of Annie Oakley brandishing her Lightning. It's too bad she never became a Mom, her kids would've been mighty interesting, might've pinned a few ears back.
What is really interesting is the fact that American shooters pretty much ignored the bolt action until the design had already been perfected in Europe. With the turn of the 20th century, America simply ripped off Mauser, and had to pay for that graft.
Lever actions are almost unheard of in Europe, to this day, just an American invention. Fiction is strange, but not as strange as history...
That was my first centerfire handgun. A retired RCMP .455 Eley converted to .45 Colt. Bought it in Maine while I went to U of M Orono. A friend and I would go to small towns on weekends and check out the local second hand stores. All old guns seemed to be priced $40. He found a Winchester Hotchkiss in 45-70 and a Model 94 Rifle in 32-40. I had to make a choice between a New Service in 45 and a Triple lock in 44 Special. I bought the Colt because I had about 500 rounds of black powder 45 Colt that an old lady in Connecticut had given me to keep ammo away from her husband after he went bonkers. A wonderful gun with the best trigger I have ever experienced on a revolver.
Anyway try 8.5 gr of Unique with these. They are relatively soft, so they should shoot well. I will try them in my Colt SAA first. If that doesn't work, try some Red Dot starting at 6.0 grains.
I may have mentioned this before but my New Frontier in 45 Colt has .454 cylinder throats and I have been using the Hornady 255 grain .454 grain knurled lead bullet in it with pretty good accuracy compared to .452 bullets. Chris S
Continuing with the 19th century here, just about all bullets were cast relatively soft, and they worked great. The New Service also needs softies, due to some pretty cavernous cylinder throats. Soft bullets bump up and seal-little to no blow by, no spitting. Accuracy is then better than I can shoot.
The Keith design is also a long one, which is stable entering the throat, yet not too long to require a specific rifling twist.
I have only shot one other bullet that is as accurate as the Keith, and that is the original conical from the old Lyman mould. However, that conical doesn't strike with the authority, or the clean, full caliber entry of the Keith.
Some folks claim that the Keith is outmoded, and that LBT designs eclipse it. In my experience, limited as it is to myself and a few others, the LBT designs must be driven with pressures approximately doubling .45 Colt working pressures, at which point the cartridge is only safe in a very short list of firearms. The Keith is stable and deep penetrating without excessive pressure.
I've known about the Red dot recipe for years, but have never tried it, relying on Unique because it works. Perhaps it's time to give it a try...
I've been using IMR Trail Boss and the 45 Colt load at about 5.o grains is listed at about 750-850 FPS for a 255 grain bullet and it a great target and plinking load while still giving enough wallop for hunting within limits. It is a bit more expensive but it is great for cartridges like the 45 Colt. Chris S
I've only seen Trail Boss for sale locally once. I forgot all about it, until you just mentioned it, Chris. Have you tried this powder with the Keith in your Colt?
I vaguely remember something about very large flake size, any problems with metering, or do you weigh every charge?
Since the fire and all, my SASS friends have vacated the area, and I can't recall if they ever had any experience with Trail Boss. I'd be open to trying it, if it offered something better than the old standbys.
Here's a link. Chris S
I have heard great things about Titegroup in the 45. It was Bob Munden's favorite (5 grains with a 250 grain) for accuracy in his Colts. I have a few pounds but haven't yet to try it.
A good review on Trail Boss. Seems it's possible to generate respectable velocity with accuracy.Yeah, as far as Titegroup goes, I've passed on it because Unique worked so well, but it probably would deliver good accuracy, since that's it's claim.
I once knew a guy who professed to order one Bob Mundens' last custom Colts. He said the springs and lockwork were all replaced, and the result was such a light action he marveled at it, and had his own gunsmith friend study it for pointers.
Heard he later sold it, all again before the government terrorist fire.
One last thing, when he got the gun from Bob it came oiled and wrapped in one of Bob's old socks! Ha!!!, Bob Mundens will be missed.